christians

[awol]

WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN?

[Henry Hawk]

WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN?

how many times do you want an answer?

i suppose until you get the ones you want, huh...

[dan foster]

WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN?

Social Christians: There ARE social christians who ID themselves based on the US's position in the world; israel is jewish, iraq is muslim, the US is christian.........AND/OR, they just were brought up in a christian church/community and, even though they don't really believe any of it, they just accept the label.  Dawkins claimed this label.

Christians: Go to church, accept whatever the preacher, priest, etc, translates for them.  Know they are going to heaven because they "believe" and need nothing else.  Don't go out of their way to convert anyone or the gov't.  Pray in silence and not on every street corner or public place.

Rabid Right (Fundie Christians):  Fascists.  You will believe.  The gov't is christian and always has been.  Fighting in iraq to wipe out islam (goes directly against their political leader, bush, who was good with iraq becoming islamic).  Can't wait for the rapture to prove all atheists wrong and will bring it about anyway they can; war, hate speech, etc.

[Horseman]

I should pay more attention of the Zone.   I didn't realize this section was even here.  Horseman>>>dummy.

Awol, you ask a tough question and I know you realize that, otherwise, why ask?

And actually Dan has stated some really good observations.

But Dan, there's also another "category", for lack of a more appropriate label, than you give description.

The category I speak is comprised of the believers, yes we'll call them "christians", who look at the—general Christian—population minus those fringe sects you mention, and shake heads in wonderment at the messages that are being preached and swallowed by the masses, without actually digging around to see if what is preached is the truth, according to scripture.   This minority section actually DO read the bible from a spiritual standpoint, always, but also dig much deeper for, let's say, an understanding of the deep things of God.

Want an example?  Let's take these and see where it goes.

1-who is responsible for the atrocious beatings and death of Christ?
2-have they been forgiven? And/or will they also be in heaven?

The first one is easy.

But, what about the second one?

[awol]

funniest part of this is that nobody answered the poll question with a "yes".  (yeah, i'm lookin' RIGHT AT YOU, hank!  with your "are you proud of this country "yes/no"!)

you kinda stepped into this one in the middle of one of my ongoing debacles.  namely: when a professed christian is caught doing anything "unchristian-like", he or she is denounced by many as "not a true christian".

did he or she become not a "true" christian through his or her actions?  was he or she a "true" christian before?

often the claim is that the perpetrator of the latest atrocity could never have been christian, and the act merely demonstrates this.

logically, however, christians only exist in death then, as the living always have the potential to perform "unchristian" acts.

my church is a place of unconditional welcoming and forgiveness.  it is hard to explain, but this is both what drove me from it for a time, and what brought me back.

i don't believe that the first part of your question was the "easy" part...  the situation was within his power to change.  was he responsible for it himself then?  was god responsible?  were the sinners of the world responsible?  or just pontius pilote?

there is an interesting version of the tale written by trevanian - 'easter story'.  it is written from the perspective of pontius pilatus.  an excerpt:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3OWtvvvHixUC&pg=PA242&lpg=PA242&dq=%22have+you+ever+seen+a+stoning%3F%22&source=web&ots=Zu_670Zae7&sig=jlhl1lbbHjnf0v7_e6CISl2BFFQ&hl=en#PPA243,M1

as to the second part, christ himself forgave those who were responsible for his death.  i think that says it all.

[dan foster]

The bottom line for me is that christian, muslim, etc are just labels of a "social" thing people have gotten into.  Yes, you can convince yourself that it means something real, but it is only a thought process that convinces one's self that it is real.  Nothing behind it.  So, whether people call themselves christians, muslims, etc, they are still JUST people and they have neither a divine creator backing them, nor a evil beast (created by that creator) luring them "astray".  People do bad things and people do good things.  The tragic among the religious groups are those who can't take responsibility for their own actions and live THIS life in THIS world.

So, when you guys use the term "real christian" it is tantamount to saying "professional psychic".  The only thing it really means is whether the person takes responsibility for their own actions or blames the killing their own kids on the devil or jesus (as an example).

[Henry Hawk]

Okay AWOL...fair enough.............though I have probably said this 100 times on here........but, I think only God knows who IS and who IS NOT a "Christian"...the Bible tells us that a Christian can be seen by his or her actions, and if they display the  fruit of the spirit....

to me Christ said that there where two commandments that was truly important..........to love God with all your hear, mind and soul....and to love your neighbor as you would love yourself...so those who TRULY follow Christ and His teachings...........should be able to call themselves Christians..............NOW if someone who calls themselves Christians goes out and lies, steals and cheats going to make it to the pearly gates?..............THAT is going to be GOD's judgment...........

and Dan, I think Christianity preaches more than ANYONE, to be accountable for your own actions.........those who blame the devil as an excuse for their actions...probably are not displaying the fruit of the Spirit OR living by the two greatest commandments.......IMHO...

[Horseman]

"were the sinners of the world responsible?  or just pontius pilote?"

Smarter than the average bear.........yes, "we" "all" did.

the greater part: 

"as to the second part, christ himself forgave those who were responsible for his death.  i think that says it all."

So do I.

[notatroll]

Okay AWOL...fair enough.............though I have probably said this 100 times on here........but, I think only God knows who IS and who IS NOT a "Christian"...the Bible tells us that a Christian can be seen by his or her actions, and if they display the  fruit of the spirit....

to me Christ said that there where two commandments that was truly important..........to love God with all your hear, mind and soul....and to love your neighbor as you would love yourself...so those who TRULY follow Christ and His teachings...........should be able to call themselves Christians..............NOW if someone who calls themselves Christians goes out and lies, steals and cheats going to make it to the pearly gates?..............THAT is going to be GOD's judgment...........

and Dan, I think Christianity preaches more than ANYONE, to be accountable for your own actions.........those who blame the devil as an excuse for their actions...probably are not displaying the fruit of the Spirit OR living by the two greatest commandments.......IMHO...

Henry, I agree with this.  Only God knows a persons heart and who they truly are.

[awol]

Henry, I agree with this.  Only God knows a persons heart and who they truly are.

then the "christian" label has no meaning whatsoever.

[Henry Hawk]

then the "christian" label has no meaning whatsoever.

maybe being a Christian is more of a "goal" rather than a "label"..........

[Horseman]

A "christian" designates a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ.  It's a label in scripture.

Easier said, than accomplished.

Viewing the christian teachings so permeated in today's churches/society compared to the teachings of Christ and the apostles, I'd rather be labeled a "zero" than bunched in with the Christian crowd we see in today's churches.  The blind, leading the blind.

Henry's right, it's a goal and one not easily obtained unless one is called out.

[Henry Hawk]

A "christian" designates a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ.  It's a label in scripture.

Easier said, than accomplished.

Viewing the christian teachings so permeated in today's churches/society compared to the teachings of Christ and the apostles, I'd rather be labeled a "zero" than bunched in with the Christian crowd we see in today's churches.  The blind, leading the blind.

Henry's right, it's a goal and one not easily obtained unless one is called out.

You know horseman....I agree.......I also would rather not be labeled at all either..........the best way for Christianity to be effective, is for people to simply live, according to Jesus, the best they can.....and let their actions ... or hopefully the "fruit of the Spirit"......that being....love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..........how could ANYBODY be against THAT?...cause THAT is being a CHRISTIAN.

[Exterminator]

...the best way for Christianity to be effective, is for people to simply live, according to Jesus, the best they can.....and let their actions ... or hopefully the "fruit of the Spirit"......that being....love, joy, peace...

And yet you advocate war...pretty much makes you a hypocrite of the worst kind; huh?

[dan foster]

You know horseman....I agree.......I also would rather not be labeled at all either..........the best way for Christianity to be effective, is for people to simply live, according to Jesus, the best they can.....and let their actions ... or hopefully the "fruit of the Spirit"......that being....love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..........how could ANYBODY be against THAT?...cause THAT is being a CHRISTIAN.

Sorry, but Ghandi was no christian and he is one of the few people that could complete your list of "being".  ML King might come in a distant second, but a very distant and he claimed to be a christian.