The Spill, The Scandal and the President...

[Palehorse]

The bolded above is what I asked about two or three times and no one acknowledged it.  Had that been waived this spill may not have reached the coastline or at least there may not be as much because there would have been more help containing the spill.

Again, a bunch of what ifs and shoulda woulda coulda speculation.

WHAT are they going to do? There are already over 5,000 USN vessels, the entire USCG available fleet, over 27,000 US Military personnel, and a host of BP hired vessels and personnel on the job across the gulf and employing the best known methods to contain the surface oil. . . Putting foreigners into the mix will only create confusion and increase the odds of a maritime incident that will negatively contribute to this disaster by putting more fuel oil into the sea.

The "experts" in the oil industry (BP and their ilk) have said from the onset that this would be contained, and they were not very transparent and forthcoming surrounding the size and scope of the spill until governmental pressure was brought to bear surrounding it.

The fact is that moving any potential foreign vessels and equipment into the Gulf will take upwards of 6 to 10 weeks by sea at best, and most of the identical equipment is already there. It does nothing for the underwater plumes that are being generated does it?. . .

Are they going to magically put all of the fishermen and shrimpers back to work? NO! Are they going to magically remove the irreparably damaged environment? NO!

Interesting that you are so adamant about accepting foreign workers and vessels, while at the same time scream for the hispanic individuals to be summarily arrested and deported.

[me]

Again, a bunch of what ifs and shoulda woulda coulda speculation.

WHAT are they going to do? There are already over 5,000 USN vessels, the entire USCG available fleet, over 27,000 US Military personnel, and a host of BP hired vessels and personnel on the job across the gulf and employing the best known methods to contain the surface oil. . . Putting foreigners into the mix will only create confusion and increase the odds of a maritime incident that will negatively contribute to this disaster by putting more fuel oil into the sea.

The "experts" in the oil industry (BP and their ilk) have said from the onset that this would be contained, and they were not very transparent and forthcoming surrounding the size and scope of the spill until governmental pressure was brought to bear surrounding it.

The fact is that moving any potential foreign vessels and equipment into the Gulf will take upwards of 6 to 10 weeks by sea at best, and most of the identical equipment is already there. It does nothing for the underwater plumes that are being generated does it?. . .

Are they going to magically put all of the fishermen and shrimpers back to work? NO! Are they going to magically remove the irreparably damaged environment? NO!

Interesting that you are so adamant about accepting foreign workers and vessels, while at the same time scream for the hispanic individuals to be summarily arrested and deported.

Not even close to the same and you know it. It would not be people coming into our country illegally and taking advantage or our welfare system it would be people trying to help us legally.

Had BP been able to use those resources if the Jones act had been waived they may have chosen to do so.  It didn't create any confusion or chaos when Bush waived it after Katrina. 

[Henry Hawk]

if you are saying that the POTUS trusted BP to fix this then, he is not a leader.......and don't compare our illegal immirgration problems with us accepting help from someone who has been in a similar situation and was able to fix things....that is about the lamest comment you have ever made...

again, this move by obama proves his arrogance......

but, he a liberal democrat so he and the media will make things all better by themselves....

I am sitting back and watching this admin self destruct....day by day.....because of arrogance and inexperience...

[followsthewolf]

But, gosh, Henry, if the President had just run roughshod over BP and grabbed the reins, everybody would be whining that the government shouldn't stick its nose into private business, who are the experts on drilling, blah, blah, blah.

Spin it any way you like. We have no expertise to tell anyone how to stop the leak, nor do we know enough about the meetings to know if something more could have been done.

[Henry Hawk]

But, gosh, Henry, if the President had just run roughshod over BP and grabbed the reins, everybody would be whining that the government shouldn't stick its nose into private business, who are the experts on drilling, blah, blah, blah.

Spin it any way you like. We have no expertise to tell anyone how to stop the leak, nor do we know enough about the meetings to know if something more could have been done.

the potus sure did know enough to threaten BP with lawsuits....and ranting and raving whose ass to kick........and screaming "stop the damn leak"........I never said he should run roughshod over BP....but you would have thought, maybe, just maybe, it migh behoove him to have a meeting with the CEO, right after this happened and evaluated BP and possible offered BP some assistance.....to perhaps offered MORE assistance to Gov Jindall when he was screaming for help....to accept help from countries who have ALREADY experienced such tragedies....

ftw, there is no spinning going on.............this is clearly how many Americans (not just republicans) see it......

[me]

But, gosh, Henry, if the President had just run roughshod over BP and grabbed the reins, everybody would be whining that the government shouldn't stick its nose into private business, who are the experts on drilling, blah, blah, blah.

Spin it any way you like. We have no expertise to tell anyone how to stop the leak, nor do we know enough about the meetings to know if something more could have been done.

A good start would have been to waive the Jones act in case they might have needed more and/or bigger ships which weren't US to help alleviate the problem. 

[followsthewolf]

That's just beautiful 20/20 hindsight.

Genius.

[Palehorse]

. . . us accepting help from someone who has been in a similar situation and was able to fix things....that is about the lamest comment you have ever made...

. . .

WTF???? WE were in this exact same situation over thirty years ago, only in shallow water, and Trans Ocean was the company in that one too. The same friggin results, with the spewing not being stopped until the relief wells were completed.

"We" didn't learn anymore in the subsequent 30 years, and neither did BP, Trans Ocean, Halliburton, or any other oil company; because they submitted the very same disaster plan that they had back then, and listed the author's phone number as the "go to" expert, even though he has been dead for over 5 years! And "we" gave them a permit to go ahead despite this?!

How the hell can you lay this off on the current POTUS is beyond comprehension and is well into insidious in basis. If a damned elephant took a healthy crap on your head you'd blame that on him too.

This man, our President, is doing a far better job than anyone else could have done given the same situations to address. Lincoln faced the very same kind of criticisms during his presidency, and it is a god damned sad thing to see this nation has not moved beyond such pettiness 145 years later.

You want to hang the POTUS for the corruption that was allowed to germinate and flourish over the previous 30 years?! I dare say that had McUseless been successful in winning the last presidential election we'd be seeing a far different reaction from you despite the fact that he would have done no more than what is currently being done. . . One has to ask just why that is?!

[followsthewolf]

the potus sure did know enough to threaten BP with lawsuits....and ranting and raving whose ass to kick........and screaming "stop the damn leak"........I never said he should run roughshod over BP....but you would have thought, maybe, just maybe, it migh behoove him to have a meeting with the CEO, right after this happened and evaluated BP and possible offered BP some assistance.....to perhaps offered MORE assistance to Gov Jindall when he was screaming for help....to accept help from countries who have ALREADY experienced such tragedies....

ftw, there is no spinning going on.............this is clearly how many Americans (not just republicans) see it......

Weren't you the one, not too long ago, who accused the POTUS of being too academic and detached and of not being very passionate, or emotional, about the problem -- like Jindal was. (Oh, that's right, Jindal is a-a-a-a REPUBLICAN! Of course, that has NOTHING to do with your assessment.)

Now, when the POTUS is emotional, he is now "ranting and raving."

Just how would you like him to act, Henry, so that it would meet your approval?

Of course, you don't know, either, what assistance he did offer and to whom, and when he might have offered it.

Neither do I.

But one thing I know for sure -- bitching and moaning ain't going to solve the problem.

[me]

That's just beautiful 20/20 hindsight.

Genius.

Hindsight here has cost the US and BP valuable time and lots of money.  It should have been done as a matter of common sense in case it was needed and is part of showing leadership rather than just shove it off as someone else's responsibility.  Doing things of that nature is not trying to take over or run a company but rather help in a logical manner so it wouldn't become an issue.  Placing blame and yelling law suit is doing nothing to help solve the problem and sending people to investigate what caused it is doing nothing either at this point and these people are probably more in the way than anything.  That is something that needs done after they get it stopped. 

[Palehorse]

Hindsight here has cost the US and BP valuable time and lots of money.  It should have been done as a matter of common sense in case it was needed and is part of showing leadership rather than just shove it off as someone else's responsibility.  Doing things of that nature is not trying to take over or run a company but rather help in a logical manner so it wouldn't become an issue.  Placing blame and yelling law suit is doing nothing to help solve the problem and sending people to investigate what caused it is doing nothing either at this point and these people are probably more in the way than anything.  That is something that needs done after they get it stopped.

You still never answered my questions:

Again, a bunch of what ifs and shoulda woulda coulda speculation.

WHAT are they going to do? There are already over 5,000 USN vessels, the entire USCG available fleet, over 27,000 US Military personnel, and a host of BP hired vessels and personnel on the job across the gulf and employing the best known methods to contain the surface oil. . . Putting foreigners into the mix will only create confusion and increase the odds of a maritime incident that will negatively contribute to this disaster by putting more fuel oil into the sea.

The "experts" in the oil industry (BP and their ilk) have said from the onset that this would be contained, and they were not very transparent and forthcoming surrounding the size and scope of the spill until governmental pressure was brought to bear surrounding it.

The fact is that moving any potential foreign vessels and equipment into the Gulf will take upwards of 6 to 10 weeks by sea at best, and most of the identical equipment is already there. It does nothing for the underwater plumes that are being generated does it?. . .

Are they going to magically put all of the fishermen and shrimpers back to work? NO! Are they going to magically remove the irreparably damaged environment? NO!

. . .

Now there was a fire aboard the ship sucking oil from the gusher and collection has stopped. . .

[Sandy Eggo]

A good start would have been to waive the Jones act in case they might have needed more and/or bigger ships which weren't US to help alleviate the problem.

While discussing the Jones Act, Fox & Friends' Brian Kilmeade misleadingly referenced "our inability or decision not to use the rest of the world's offers to help us skim up the sludge." In fact, the U.S. has used cleanup equipment from other nations "and will continue to do that," according to Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen.

In fact, Allen stated that "we are using" equipment from other nations for oil clean-up.  In a June 10 press briefing, Allen confirmed that "we are using" foreign technology:

    Q: There are many people who say that the best dredgers and skimmers in the world come from countries like the Netherlands and France and that they can't -- they're not being asked to come in because of the Jones Act.  Is that the case?  And why not get around that, suspend that, so you can bring that other you know technology in?

    ADMIRAL ALLEN: Well, first of all, those are source countries.  That's correct, they're available.  But we are using them.  We are dealing with folks like Norway, the Netherlands, Canada and other places.  Anyplace that's got skimming capability that's available, we're willing to talk to them, and we actually have, in some cases, actually transferred the equipment down and will continue to do that.

    If it gets -- if it gets to the point where there's a Jones Act required, we're willing to do that, too.  Nobody's come to me with a request for a Jones Act waiver, but any skimming capability we can bring in, we're looking for.

    Q: So are the actual boats being brought in or just the equipment?

    ADMIRAL ALLEN: Well, in some cases it's the skimmer itself.  In some cases, the skimming equipment is organic to the vessel itself.  It depends on what you're talking about.  To my knowledge, what we brought in is actually skimming equipment rather than the vessels themselves, but we can give you a detailed listing.

Fox & Friends aired only Allen's statement that "nobody's come to me with a request for a Jones Act waiver." Fox & Friends only aired Allen's statement during a June 10 press briefing that "if it gets to the point where there's a Jones Act required, we're willing to do that, too. Nobody's come to me with a request for a Jones Act waiver." But Fox & Friends did not air Allen's statement that "we are using" technology from other nations and that "[w]e are dealing with folks like Norway, the Netherlands, Canada and other places.  Anyplace that's got skimming capability that's available, we're willing to talk to them, and we actually have, in some cases, actually transferred the equipment down and will continue to do that."

Fox & Friends misleads on international aid to the Gulf spill

Q: You said that you're willing to entertain Jones waivers requests.

ADMIRAL ALLEN: Yes.

Q: But none have come—none have come to you.  Who would they come from?

ADMIRAL ALLEN: They would be sent up—come from a variety of ways.  For—I'll give you a good one right now we're working on.  The State of Louisiana is looking for as many dredges as they can bring in to do the barrier island berm project that's been approved, now funded.

We worked with the Army Corps of Engineers to release any dredges that aren't needed from projects.  They are putting out a solicitation around the country for additional dredges.  If there is a shortfall, they can bring foreign dredges in, but that would require a Jones Act waiver.  And I've told the State of Louisiana, if you get to that point, submit a waiver, and we'll consider it.  That would be a typical scenario.

LIEUTENANT COMMANDER RUSSELL:  Thank you all very much.

http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/2931/627127/

[Sandy Eggo]

Contrary to what the Constitution says, the president does not run the executive branch of the federal government. It runs itself. Following Newton's Laws of Motion, it is "a body in motion that tends to remain in motion in the same direction and at the same speed unless acted upon by an outside force." The bureaucracy keeps doing what it is programmed to do unless someone intervenes.

And that intervention is the proper job of the president. He has to step in, ask the right questions, get inside and outside advice, and decide how to intervene to move the bureaucracy one way or the other. President Clinton had an excellent sense of how to do this and when to get involved. President Obama does not.

When the spill started, he and his campaign staff - now transplanted to the White House - reacted the way a Senator or a candidate would, blaming British Petroleum, framing an issue against the oil company, and holding it accountable. But what he needed to do was to review the plans for coping with the disaster and intervene to move the bureaucracy in untraditional but more appropriate directions. Instead, he let business as usual and inertia move the process.

The president's tardy requests for international assistance and his government's bureaucratic response to their offers demonstrates his lack of command and control. The Washington Post reports that the Obama Administration initially "saw no need to accept offers of state-of-the-art skimmers, miles of boom or technical assistance from nations around the globe with experience fighting oil spills." Arrogantly, State Department spokesman Gordon Duguid told reporters on May 19th "we'll let BP decide what expertise they do need."

Two weeks after the spill started, the State Department and the Coast Guard sought to figure out what aid they could use from abroad. On May 5th, the Department reported that thirteen international offers of aid had been tendered and the government would decide which to accept "in the next two days." Two weeks later, it said that it did not need any of them.

Now, when it is too late, the U.S. has finally accepted Canada's offer of 10,000 feet of boom. In late May it took 14,000 feet from Mexico, two skimmers from Mexico, and skimming systems from Norway and the Netherlands. Too little too late.

Why didn't the Administration act sooner?

Bureaucratic obstacles stopped it and the president was not involved or active enough to sweep them aside.

Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr Christopher T. O'Neil said that "all qualifying offers of assistance have been accepted." But this bureaucratic-speak did not mention that the Jones Act - an isolationist law passed in the 1920s that requires vessels working in American waters to be built and crewed by Americans - disqualified many of the offers of assistance. But Obama could have waived the Jones Act whenever he wanted to.

A Norwegian offer of a chemical dispersant was rejected by the EPA - more bureaucracy.

When Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal sought to create sand berms to keep oil away from the coastline, the Washington Post reported that he reached out to "the marine contractor Van Oord and the research institute Deltares...BP pledged $360 million for the plan, but U.S. dredging companies - which have less than one-fifth the capacity of Dutch dredging firms -- objected to foreign companies' participation."

An activist, involved chief executive would have swept aside these impediments and demanded immediate action. He would have ridden roughshod over bureaucratic and political objections and gotten the cleanup underway.

But this president is no executive. He is a legislator - he is now pushing new environmental legislation. He is a lawyer - his Attorney General is investigating criminal charges against BP. He is a populist - he is quick to blame BP. He is a big spender - he wants a fund to pay the spill's victims. He is all of these things. But he is no chief executive and that, unfortunately, is the job he was elected to do.

Henry's source:

http://www.bitchaboutobama.com/2010/06/15/obama-an-incompetent-executive/



Very unbiased. Did either one of you yahoos fact check the thing?

[Palehorse]

 

[Henry Hawk]

WTF? ??? WE were in this exact same situation over thirty years ago, only in shallow water, and Trans Ocean was the company in that one too. The same friggin results, with the spewing not being stopped until the relief wells were completed.

What does that have to do with stopping this oil from reaching shore?.........folks in Louisana would have welcomed anyone that could have stopped that oil from reaching land, and those who are willing to clean it up....too, late now.

How the hell can you lay this off on the current POTUS is beyond comprehension and is well into insidious in basis. If a damned elephant took a healthy crap on your head you'd blame that on him too.

How in the hell can you NOT, accept the fact that this has been very badly mishandled?..........I know!!! because you are a democrat (despite what you say)...and you will NEVER admit that this POTUS is a poor example of a President....just because he got elected does NOT make him a qualified leader...if an elephant took a crap on your head, you would blame it on Bush, and claim Obama will figure out whose ASS to kick and he would make damn sure the elephant paid for all of YOU damages...

This man, our President, is doing a far better job than anyone else could have done given the same situations to address. Lincoln faced the very same kind of criticisms during his presidency, and it is a god damned sad thing to see this nation has not moved beyond such pettiness 145 years later.

prove it, you can't.........and please you have no basis to compare him to Lincoln.....he is more comparable to Carter....THAT I could see.

You want to hang the POTUS for the corruption that was allowed to germinate and flourish over the previous 30 years?! I dare say that had McUseless been successful in winning the last presidential election we'd be seeing a far different reaction from you despite the fact that he would have done no more than what is currently being done. . . One has to ask just why that is?!

Well there is no way to know for sure, but one thing I can say is that McCain is far more experienced than a one-term senator, community organizer....just like Dick Morris said (in the thread that I attached earlier)....obama has acted like a legislater, a lawyer and a populist....NOT a leader.