Global Warming

[me]

It was gettin' pretty hot in here.  I thought a little diversion might be in order. 

Good thinkin' Dexter....

[DannyBoy]

I really appreciate all the comments and different points of view posted on this issue.

One thing that has not been mentioned with all the tax and spend comments.

Many USA manufacturing industries have closed down, shipped manufacturing jobs, and built new facilities outside of our borders.  It is not just all about labor rate.  It also has a whole lot to do with the cost of doing business in the USA today....permitting, regulation, controls, etc.  It has become unreasonable to build significant new industry here based on climate change legislation derived from fear....Builiding big modernized facilities (such as refineries) has become nearly impossilble to fund in this country.  A company would have to be insane or just incredibly patriotic to put up with the constraints.

Why do you think Obama only mentions "Green Jobs". 

We need to refine and drill, we need to build cars (parts), make TV's, computers, plastics, steels, carpet, paper, clothing, electronics, etc.....Nobody can afford to build these facilities because of the extreme environmental caps placed on them.

If we could relieve some of the extremist environmental burden....we could create millions of jobs in this country.  It's too easy, and too cheap to build these factories elsewhere and import the goods into the USA.

Instead of asking companies to be reasonable and good environmental stewards, we force them to be extreme.   What is the end result....build elsewhere and puke whatever they want in the climate......good policy.

[me]

Good point although I know some here won't understand what you're saying. 

[Exterminator]

Because what he is saying is garbage.  If it were true, Nestles wouldn't have just built a factory in Anderson and Honda wouldn't have built one in Greensburg.  Most of the costs associated with meeting environmental codes are typically one time costs and are not prohibitive.  Labor is the primary reason companies locate their facilities outside of the country.

[me]

Because what he is saying is garbage.  If it were true, Nestles wouldn't have just built a factory in Anderson and Honda wouldn't have built one in Greensburg.  Most of the costs associated with meeting environmental codes are typically one time costs and are not prohibitive.  Labor is the primary reason companies locate their facilities outside of the country.

But he's talking about if new more strict requirements are implemented which would be more expensive.  Also Nestles wouldn't fall under the same category as a lot of businesses as far as needing to meet some of the more expensive regulations and controls.

[Exterminator]

But he's talking about if new more strict requirements are implemented which would be more expensive. 

And you know this how?  If you don't yet know what those restrictions might be, how can you possibly establish what they might cost?  Even if they were expensive, most are still not ongoing costs and environmental regulations have been tightening for decades even while factories continued being built.

Also Nestles wouldn't fall under the same category as a lot of businesses as far as needing to meet some of the more expensive regulations and controls.

Again, you know this how?  Did you help design that facility or have any insight whatsoever into what regulations govern the building of any factory or are you just pulling "facts" out of your tuckus?

[Bo D]

England isn't cooling down 

Yet.....

[Bo D]

It was gettin' pretty hot in here.  I thought a little diversion might be in order. 

Hey... if you can't take the heat, ......



Sorry, but I think for the most part we are being civil.

[DannyBoy]

I am not only referring to future industry, this has been going on for years.  I base my opinion on personal experience.  I worked in the plastics manufacturing industry for nearly 20 years.  Between early 90's and now, I watched billions of dollars being spent on new facilities in mexico, china, india, and thailand.  Nothing was spent on new construction in the USA and a large reason for that was the cost of enviromental regulations and compliance.  It is a lot more than one time costs at construction.  The annual cost to maintain, permit, document, file, etc is huge.

There are certainly many considerations that go into decisions new contruction, I am just pointing out that cost of environmental 'compliance' is a significant contributing factor.

[Bo D]

I am not only referring to future industry, this has been going on for years.  I base my opinion on personal experience.  I worked in the plastics manufacturing industry for nearly 20 years.  Between early 90's and now, I watched billions of dollars being spent on new facilities in mexico, china, india, and thailand.  Nothing was spent on new construction in the USA and a large reason for that was the cost of enviromental regulations and compliance.  It is a lot more than one time costs at construction.  The annual cost to maintain, permit, document, file, etc is huge.

There are certainly many considerations that go into decisions new contruction, I am just pointing out that cost of environmental 'compliance' is a significant contributing factor.

And what will be the cost to our great-great-grandchildren if we continue to spoil the planet?

[Exterminator]

And what will be the cost to our great-great-grandchildren if we continue to spoil the planet?

Who cares?

[Palehorse]

I really appreciate all the comments and different points of view posted on this issue.

One thing that has not been mentioned with all the tax and spend comments.

Many USA manufacturing industries have closed down, shipped manufacturing jobs, and built new facilities outside of our borders.  It is not just all about labor rate.  It also has a whole lot to do with the cost of doing business in the USA today....permitting, regulation, controls, etc.  It has become unreasonable to build significant new industry here based on climate change legislation derived from fear....Builiding big modernized facilities (such as refineries) has become nearly impossilble to fund in this country.  A company would have to be insane or just incredibly patriotic to put up with the constraints.

Why do you think Obama only mentions "Green Jobs". 

We need to refine and drill, we need to build cars (parts), make TV's, computers, plastics, steels, carpet, paper, clothing, electronics, etc.....Nobody can afford to build these facilities because of the extreme environmental caps placed on them.

If we could relieve some of the extremist environmental burden....we could create millions of jobs in this country.  It's too easy, and too cheap to build these factories elsewhere and import the goods into the USA.

Instead of asking companies to be reasonable and good environmental stewards, we force them to be extreme.   What is the end result....build elsewhere and puke whatever they want in the climate......good policy.

I am not only referring to future industry, this has been going on for years.  I base my opinion on personal experience.  I worked in the plastics manufacturing industry for nearly 20 years.  Between early 90's and now, I watched billions of dollars being spent on new facilities in mexico, china, india, and thailand.  Nothing was spent on new construction in the USA and a large reason for that was the cost of enviromental regulations and compliance.  It is a lot more than one time costs at construction.  The annual cost to maintain, permit, document, file, etc is huge.

There are certainly many considerations that go into decisions new contruction, I am just pointing out that cost of environmental 'compliance' is a significant contributing factor.

Excellent points DB! This goes right along with the unreasonable expectations surrounding regulatory compliance within the pharmaceutical, medical device industries. These are the main drivers behind companies like Roche Diagnostics making decisions to ramp down manufacturing operations in the US and ramp them back up in Germany; putting 2,500+ manufacturing workers and support personell out of jobs, (Just within the Indy location alone), within the next 2-5 years. Turning their current manufacturing facility into nothing but a distribution center.

Things like this drive employers to utilize unsavory business practices in dealing with its tenured labor pool, in an attempt to minimize as much as possible the costs associated with severence packages.

IMHO something needs to be done about each of these points IF the US wants any kind of future at all within the manufactoring sectors of business.

EDIT: The point being that heavy handed tactics surrounding the attainment of compliance measures established to remediate contributions made toward global warming by the various sectors of industry should be well planned and milestones put into place that are reasonable; avoiding overwhelming industry to the point where it makes it cheaper or easier to just close its doors and move to another country. . .

[me]

And you know this how?  If you don't yet know what those restrictions might be, how can you possibly establish what they might cost?  Even if they were expensive, most are still not ongoing costs and environmental regulations have been tightening for decades even while factories continued being built.

Again, you know this how?  Did you help design that facility or have any insight whatsoever into what regulations govern the building of any factory or are you just pulling "facts" out of your tuckus?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a factory bottling chocolate milk wouldn't need the same restrictions and emission controls as a plant that deals with plastics, glass, steel, or chemicals. 

[Exterminator]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a factory bottling chocolate milk wouldn't need the same restrictions and emission controls as a plant that deals with plastics, glass, steel, or chemicals. 

Of course but any structure of that size will contend with some environmental issues.

[me]

Of course but any structure of that size will contend with some environmental issues.

But it would be mostly the ones that are already in place like the green areas and so forth rather than having to do with emissions which are the most costly.