The Unknown Zone - proudly an American forum!

I think most people agree that this is a problem, but it seems like everyone has a different opinion on the solution. What's yours?

Build the fence, control the border better and make it more difficult to sneak into the country.  Put people caught in jail until deported.

Dry up jobs for illegals.  Make it more difficult for illegals to work here illegally.

Create a process for workers to come here temporarily and go back to Mexico or whereever.

there already is a process.  they sneak across, and we try and catch them and send them back.  big deal.  this has been going on for over a hundred years.  i live in socal and couldn't care less.  if there was no work for immigrants, they wouldn't come. 

I forgot to mention that apathy is part of the problem.

Isn't it amazing how this problem went away?....well, not actually, but it is NOT the worry as it was a few months ago....with our economy at risk....and, this IS part of our current problem, at least a contributing factor...

Quote from: Henry Hawk on October 13, 2008, 08:42:22 AM
Isn't it amazing how this problem went away?....well, not actually, but it is NOT the worry as it was a few months ago....with our economy at risk....and, this IS part of our current problem, at least a contributing factor...

I also have noticed that neither of the candidates for POTUS brought up this issue. I guess that even with people who want this illegal immigration issue under control, there are others who scream racism &/or discrimination. Those crying racism seem to make people apprehensive of mentioning it, I guess.

are people who are not american citizens still people who are born with certain unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?  and aren't they also entitled to participate in a free market where they can charge what they will for their marketable assets, including their own labor? 

Quote from: bevis on November 04, 2008, 12:47:12 PM
are people who are not american citizens still people who are born with certain unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?  and aren't they also entitled to participate in a free market where they can charge what they will for their marketable assets, including their own labor? 

No, at least not in the USA.  You imply that anyone who wants to come here has the right to do so.  The answer is no.

Where does bevis' statement seem like wise insight, a clever phrase?  Among adolescents, that's where.

Not tryin' to sound mean here but.... they need to go. The job situation here is pathetic. Americans need jobs right now. I know they work cheaper, and they are very hard workers but, they shouldn't be doin' jobs Americans have a right to. I fully realize they do jobs most Americans wouldn't touch but, we're down to crunch time now. Americans may need those jobs to support their families. It's time for them to go, and we need to seal off the border somehow.  :yes:

I'm reading an interesting fiction book that has this as its theme - The Tortilla Curtain by TC Boyle.  I should be done with it today.  It is very interesting. 

I think if people are trying to make a living here without doing illegal activity, then they should stay.  Problem with deporting people for doing illegal activity is that most people don't have a place to be deported to.  This country is a melting pot and I think it should stay that way. 

I agree that this country should remain a melting pot - "Out of many, one". 

But uncontrolled illegal immigration in large numbers will create communities and large minorities in sections of the country which do not intend to become Americans.  They wish to remain Mexican living in America.  Some eventually wish to reconquer these areas of America, mainly the Southwest, in a very real sense, through demographic change.  Watch for it.

Something similar is happening in Europe with the influx of Muslims.  Mark Steyn sees the problem more of European decadence than Muslim infiltration.  The Europeans do not believe they have a civilization worth defending or protecting.  Or they believe they SHOULD NOT defend themselves against unwanted cultural change, even when that change attacks the basic foundation of their civilization:  liberty, equality before the law, minority rights, equality of women, religious freedom etc.  Longterm, it is scary stuff.

I think of it like this. If I'm there without the proper paperwork would they send me home?

I believe they would.

Quote from: American_Woman on December 29, 2008, 02:41:47 PM
I think of it like this. If I'm there without the proper paperwork would they send me home?

I believe they would.

:yes:

Mexico is very hard on Central Americans coming through Mexico to America.  They try to block their souther border with some brutality and sent them packing.

That's why we need borders.  :yes: Everybody stays on their own side... problem solved.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: kimmi on December 12, 2008, 11:15:26 AM
I'm reading an interesting fiction book that has this as its theme - The Tortilla Curtain by TC Boyle.  I should be done with it today.  It is very interesting. 

I think if people are trying to make a living here without doing illegal activity, then they should stay.  Problem with deporting people for doing illegal activity is that most people don't have a place to be deported to.  This country is a melting pot and I think it should stay that way. 

The problem with that is how much crime are the illegal immigrants taking credit for that they didn't actually commit? They can't really defend themselves so they seem like easy targets.  Just like in the book. Delany was all set to nab the people vandalizing the wall, certain that Mexicans were guilty, but once he found out that the son of a friend was doing the vandalizing, suddenly it became a non-issue.

Everyone in the neighborhood assumed that a Mexican set the fire...which was nothing but a lucky guess on their part...but it wasn't set out of ill regard for the canyon. It was an accident that could happen to anyone regardless of nationality.

True, it was fiction, but the scenarios in the book are very realistic.

Something that isn't discussed is the process to acquire a green card. Is it that difficult to attain one? What about a working VISA if the immigrants don't want to become citizens. Is that difficult?

It just seems that if people are going to make an "industry" out of bringing the people to the country and using them as a labor pool, that someone could just as easily make an "industry" of helping them file the appropriate paper work. Saying this, I know there's an office they can go to. I mean, someone that they trust that will help guide them to the office(s) and through the legal process.

It would be interesting to have the perspective of an immigrant regarding that process. It might help us understand why they opt to take their chances.

SOMETIMES there is a reason why people have preconceptions, often based on nonfiction.


Statistics:

Criminal Alien Prison Population –
According to an April 7th, 2005 General Accounting Office (GAO) study entitled, "Information on Criminal Aliens Incarcerated in Federal and State Prisons and Local Jails" [Report # GAO-05-337R] prepared for the Congressional Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims:

"27% of the total population in all U.S. prison systems (including city, county, state and federal) is composed of criminal aliens."

Total Murders in the U.S. in 2005 –
According to the FBI, there were 16,692 persons murdered in the U.S. in 2005. The Uniform Crime Reporting Program defines murder and non-negligent manslaughter as the willful killing of one human being by another.

Total Drunk-Driving Fatalities in the U.S. in 2005 –
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 12,945 Americans were killed in car crashes where the driver had a blood alcohol concentration of .08g/dL or higher in 2005.

Calculations:
Total number of people murdered in the U.S. at the hands of criminal aliens in 2005: 4,507
This number is calculated by taking 27% multiplied by the total number of murders in the U.S. in 2005 (.27 x 16,692 = 4,507)
This figure equals approximately 12 murders every day at the hands of criminal aliens (4,507 / 365 = 12)

Total number of people killed in the U.S. as a result of drunk-driving criminal aliens in 2005: 3,495
This number is calculated by taking 27% multiplied by the total number of alcohol-related fatalities in 2005 (.27 x 12,945 = 3,495)
This figure equals approximately 10 deaths every day at the hands of criminal alien drunk drivers (3,495 / 365 = 10)

Conclusions:
Twenty-five Americans die at the hands of criminal aliens every day in the U.S.
(12 murders + 10 drunk-driving fatalities + 3 negligent homicides = 25 deaths every day)

In the year 2005, criminal aliens killed more than three times the number of Americans murdered in the terrorist attacks of 9-11 died.
9,125 Americans died at the hands of criminal aliens in 2005, as compared to approximately 3,000 Americans who perished in 9-11.

Additional Statistics:
Federal prison criminal alien population:
Total number of criminal aliens in federal prison: 48,708
Mexico 63%, Colombia and Dominican Republic 7% each, Jamaica 4%, Cuba 3% and El Salvador 2%, remaining countries represent less than 2% each.
Source: Bureau of Prisons (BOP)

Quote from: Monroe on December 30, 2008, 04:34:57 PM
SOMETIMES there is a reason why people have preconceptions, often based on nonfiction.

Nonfiction? Okay; Out of context? Definitely. 

When you consider that the US has over 300,000,000 legal citizens, the numbers cited are relatively small in comparison. Then you also have to consider that it's Americans who fill those numbers out to a whole number which would mean that we are committing the lionshare of the crime.

Basing preconceptions on those stats w/out considering the entire picture is just another method to justify racism. IMO.

Quote from: Sandy Eggo on December 30, 2008, 05:58:14 PM
Nonfiction? Okay; Out of context? Definitely. 

When you consider that the US has over 300,000,000 legal citizens, the numbers cited are relatively small in comparison. Then you also have to consider that it's Americans who fill those numbers out to a whole number which would mean that we are committing the lionshare of the crime.

Basing preconceptions on those stats w/out considering the entire picture is just another method to justify racism. IMO.

You must add arithmetic to the things you do not understand.  For the rest of us, look at the numbers.

Quote from: Monroe on December 30, 2008, 06:52:47 PM
You must add arithmetic to the things you do not understand.  For the rest of us, look at the numbers.

You can't consider the numbers without considering the math if you want an objective perspective.

"27% of the total population in all U.S. prison systems (including city, county, state and federal) is composed of criminal aliens."

If 12 million illegal aliens are in the US, that's about 4% of the population.  Some of those aliens in jail may not be illegal but, still they are vastly over represented in the prison population.  More recent numbers may change some but the point is made.

Facts are stubborn things.

Exactly, facts are stubborn things. Statistics are something else all together.  Since illegal aliens aren't documented, how exactly do they come up with a specific figure? They can't, so it can't be said w/any degree of certainty either way how much of the illegal population is represented.

You posted numbers attempting to justify this statement.

Quote from: Monroe on December 30, 2008, 04:34:57 PM
SOMETIMES there is a reason why people have preconceptions, often based on nonfiction.

The numbers don't support it. People have preconceptions against a specific population because of ignorance. The only way to explain prejudice is fear.  Period.  By posting numbers to support your statement you seem to be implying that it's acceptable to assume that all illegal aliens are here to commit crime just because there are some who have. Based on that logic then I guess we should be concerned about the number of American men in prison. Is that gender over represented? Does that mean that we should be leery and have preconceived notions that all men are just waiting to commit a crime?

the bottom line for me is.........illegal immigration NEEDS to be brought to a stop.....there is a reason it is called "illegal".  We need to send everyone who is NOT here legally, back home.  The whole process to allow immigrants and vistors into this country HAVE to be re-evaulated and modified to make the process more effecient, for EVERYONE.

Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 31, 2008, 10:17:18 AM
the bottom line for me is.........illegal immigration NEEDS to be brought to a stop.....there is a reason it is called "illegal".  We need to send everyone who is NOT here legally, back home.  The whole process to allow immigrants and vistors into this country HAVE to be re-evaulated and modified to make the process more effecient, for EVERYONE.

I agree HH.  :yes:

Quote from: Henry Hawk on December 31, 2008, 10:17:18 AM
the bottom line for me is.........illegal immigration NEEDS to be brought to a stop.....there is a reason it is called "illegal".  We need to send everyone who is NOT here legally, back home.  The whole process to allow immigrants and vistors into this country HAVE to be re-evaulated and modified to make the process more effecient, for EVERYONE.

I agree also. 

ahhhh, nevermind.

Don't worry. Pretty soon if things don't change we'll be so bad off that they'll go back of their own accord. Things in the 3rd world countries will look wonderful compared to us! More jobs, more opportunity. . .etc.

Quote from: Dexter Morgan on December 29, 2008, 10:31:37 PM
That's why we need borders.  :yes: Everybody stays on their own side... problem solved.  :thumbsup:

I don't agree we should have to stay where we are "from." Just that when you intend on going outside of that have the proper paperwork proving who you really are,have proof(ID,SS#,complete address,numbers,birth certificate,shot records,..............) or stay home!