Was anyone else in attendance at the board meeting tonight. It was my first one. I am no longer surprised at the current condition of our school system. Tobi Jones....I take back everything I may have implied towards you on any past posts.
Several of the board members clearly have contempt for each other. The president did not have any control. Millikan is a bully. The VP and the secretary sat there like they were spoiled kids that got sent to their room. The secretary would all of the sudden call out for a vote. The president would say ok Yeah or Ney.....board would vote...then someone would say what did we just do....let's do it over. Apparently at the last special meeting, a resolution got jammed down the boards throat and they passed it anyway....shame on them. Tobi brought it up that it should be reconsidered (hooray for her). Millikan took offense because he knows he is 'right'. The board re-voted asking for more time to consider the resolution they already passed. Millikan got so upset he said...ok fine, we should just adjourn, then he got up and walked out. It was awesome to watch. Mr. Long was hung up trying to claim a "hypothetical" scenario to protect someone that must have been on the board before. They rarely made eye contact with each other. Erma Stewart and Tobi Jones seemed to be the only ones on the board that displayed a true caring for the community school system...and really wanted to do things right and give every consideration worthy discussion.
I am not sure what all was in the resolution in question. It was something to do with the timing and who received the preliminary lay off notices. Mr Millikan may be 100% correct; however watching the boards childish and unprofessional behavior was disturbing......like I said, I am not surprised our school system is in a shambles.
I really hope the board just takes whatever the ACSC challenge panel suggests and approves it. If they try to come up with something on their own....we are doomed for repeated failure.
The AFT Representative didn't even bother to show up because 'something more important' came up.
When the patron from the crowd was speaking and making some great points...no one on the board, except Tobi and Erma, seemed to be paying any attention at all. The superintendent and her cronies were sitting off to the side looking disgusted the whole time.
When it came time for new business....they were all so disturbed that someone blurted out a motion to adjourn and they all said YEAH and dispersed.
I could go on......
I saw that someone was video taping the meeting. I would like to see the reaction to the state or federal secretary of education if they were to watch it. I'm sure they would call for an immediate vote of 'no confidence' and take over our school system for us. I used to think that would be a bad idea......Now I think it may be the best thing that could happen.
I will be interested to hear the AHB version of the meeting.
The ACS board has been a crock for a very long time.
A few choice examples:
The Chesterfield Elementary school couldn't be used anymore because it would have taken one million dollars to renovate it.
So they spent SEVEN million dollars renovating 10th Street school so they could bus the Chesterfield kids there.
Property taxes had to be raised because the population of Anderson was dropping and there were fewer students in the schools.
(I am not making that up, that was indeed their argument)
Fewer kids means fewer schools, so they began discussing closing Anderson High School.
Naturally this caused a huge brouhaha, but, hey, since it wasn't the Highland kids, who cares what the public thinks!
So the spent millions renovating the other high schools and renamed Madison Heights to Anderson High.
The old Anderson High School building was so embarrassed by the school board that it (apparently) self-immolated.
I haven't verified it, but someone told me yesterday that Lapel schools spend $10,000 per year per student and has a 92% graduation rate. Anderson schools spend $13, 000 per year per student and has a graduation rate of 52%.
Perhaps the demographics are completely different for Lapel than for Anderson.
And, if Keith Millikan, the BEST teacher the Anderson schools EVER had says he's right, then he IS right! If he seems above everyone else, that is because he just is. He is just the best and it would serve everyone well to listen to the man!
I think you are correct GoJ about the amount of money spent on Lapel students and Anderson students, at least that is what I remember from the article in the paper. But the types of students are very different. ACS has a very large number of special needs students and low income students. IMO this makes a huge difference in graduation rates, etc. I'm not making excuses for ACS, the graduation rate is terrible, but their situation is very different from Lapel. I don't know what the solution is, but something needs to be done. Maybe the parents of students failing need to be forced to attend class with them!
Demographic differences aside, the ACS is a joke. Go to the top of the thread and read what Dannyboy wrote. He was there.
I did read it and it sounds like they must have all had a fight before the meeting and were pouting. Not adult behavior. I still think by trying to compare the students between Lapel (or most any similar small school system) is rather like comparing apples and oranges. When I went to my granddaughter's kindergarten class I was shocked at how far behind they were. It was Christmas time and some still didn't know their colors, abcs, shapes and there were only 12 or 13 in the class. After I met some of the parents I had a better understanding of the situation. I don't think you can lump all of these kids together and expect any or very few of them to excel esp. in the lower grades. I have three grandchildren who started their educaation in ACS. One an had excellent kindergarten teacher and could read and do math at grade 1 1/2 level, one could read at first grade level when she went into kindergarten and second grade at the end of kindergarten, the third could read a little when she went into kindergarten and through no teaching at school (all done at home) she read at first grade level at the end of kindergarten. I do not blame the teacher for this, she had her hands full with the very large boy who liked to hit people, the boy with the anger issues, the child who spoke no english, and the two little girls who "didn't have to listen because the teacher wasn't their boss". Obviously something has to be done, maybe we should make the parents attend school with their children.
I know this is a bit off topic but I did appreciate President Obama saying that education begins at home, turn off the TV and read to you child!! Anne is so right in the discrepancy of the ability in children that come into kindergarten. If most had been watching Sesame Street instead of Sponge Bob, they would have been better off.
Now return to your regularly scheduled program.
Quote from: kimmi on February 25, 2009, 07:07:30 AM
...turn off the TV and read to you child!
You're making the assumption that they
can read.
Quote from: kimmi on February 25, 2009, 07:07:30 AM
I know this is a bit off topic but I did appreciate President Obama saying that education begins at home, turn off the TV and read to you(r) child!! Anne is so right in the discrepancy of the ability in children that come into kindergarten. If most had been watching Sesame Street instead of Sponge Bob, they would have been better off.
Now return to your regularly scheduled verbal abuse by Ex.
Amen, kimmi!
Quote from: Exterminator on February 25, 2009, 07:58:42 AM
You're making the assumption that they can read.
Also true!! We can ask them to stick to the basics and leave the Dr. Seuss to the experts! :razz:
People have been saying the same thing Obama said for YEARS and it seems to do no good! People use TV to babysit their kids.
Out here in California, I am shocked by the amount and kind of work a first grader does. And, it should be the same nationwide since it's all due to the No Child Left Behind act. My granddaughter has 10 pages of English and 8 pages of math due each week as her homework. The math we're talking is pre-algebra and geometry and the kids don't even have their addition to the 9's memorized yet! But, the kids are still expected to learn things above their head. The teacher said he sets them up for failure, and it is so true.
Quote from: Ghost of Jaco on February 25, 2009, 11:42:03 AM
Amen, kimmi!
I see that empirical data isn't the only thing you'll twist to suit your needs. :razz:
I feel like the crux of the problem is that education is not valued today as much as it was in the past. When we (baby boomers, in general) attended school, it was looked upon as our job. As an employer has certain expectations of his employees: be there on time, every day; follow the rules, and do good work-- so too did the school system have pretty much the same expectations of us, and they were backed by our parents who held us to similar standards. Nowadays, sadly, the same doesn't hold true. Kids expect immediate gratification for any expenditure of effort, and education's benefits sometime don't show their truest value until an individual gets out into the "real world". Besides, they think they will all get into professional sports, and failing that, there's always the lottery to win! :o And parents don't seem to care.
And Kimmi, you couldn't be more right: one of the most important things parents (and grandparents) can do for kids is READ to them, and instill in them a desire to acquire knowledge, either thru the schools, or by their own efforts. Kids need library cards more than they need video games! But that's just an old geezer's viewpoint.
Quote from: Ma and Pa on February 25, 2009, 03:06:27 PM
I feel like the crux of the problem is that education is not valued today as much as it was in the past. When we (baby boomers, in general) attended school, it was looked upon as our job. As an employer has certain expectations of his employees: be there on time, every day; follow the rules, and do good work-- so too did the school system have pretty much the same expectations of us, and they were backed by our parents who held us to similar standards. Nowadays, sadly, the same doesn't hold true. Kids expect immediate gratification for any expenditure of effort, and education's benefits sometime don't show their truest value until an individual gets out into the "real world". Besides, they think they will all get into professional sports, and failing that, there's always the lottery to win! :o And parents don't seem to care.
And Kimmi, you couldn't be more right: one of the most important things parents (and grandparents) can do for kids is READ to them, and instill in them a desire to acquire knowledge, either thru the schools, or by their own efforts. Kids need library cards more than they need video games! But that's just an old geezer's viewpoint.
Thanks!
Part of the problem that I see is that no one trusts anyone with their children anymore. Some of it is for good reason, but I think sheltering children doesn't allow for them to learn some life lessons. Plus if your child never feels failure of any kind until they are older, they wouldn't have developed the coping skills needed for those situations.
I don't trust the bus driver so I drive my kid to school. Okay but there are social interactions - both good and bad - that are learning lessons. Kids then learn that buses are bad places. Is that appropriate?
Walking your child to their room every morning. Although appropriate on certain occasions, a child who has this done for them every day doesn't have to be responsible to learn how to do it themselves, doesn't think they can do it themselves, and mommy's (and daddy's) cord gets bigger and tighter.
NOT MY CHILD! Really? We were all kids. I find it hard to believe that any one of us were perfect in that what the teacher said we did was an out right lie if they sent a note home or called. My parents really were not interested in what I had to say. Well I guess children must be a whole lot more perfect than we were because "NOT MY CHILD!" is a mantra of too many parents.
I don't want my child to have any consequences so I'll do their homework for them. Really? You already passed the 4th grade. It is now their turn.
I don't want my child to go on a field trip unless I can go. I don't care if you only need 3 parents and have them already. Oh and by the way, we won't be riding the bus either. :rolleyes: Is this your vacation? Because last I checked I thought this was a learning experience and yes you will take a group of kids if you are coming! :biggrin:
It is not that parents are not welcome at school, because they are. There is a line though of over doing it. I have parents float in and out all the time in my classroom, but the ones whose parents stand in the hall and fret while watching their 10 year old unpack their own bag or bite their nails to nubs until their child looks at them through the window one more time are only creating little anxious children who will probably be on Xanax before they are 18.
Immediate gratification - I agree. Education not valued - absolutely!! How can you value education when you don't trust or respect the adults in charge?
Or give your children some independence so that they may excel or make a mistake and learn from it?
I've seen it myself. I think they mean well, but sometimes parents help so much that they actually hinder the child.
Because sometimes you CAN'T trust the teachers in charge!
Like my Spanish teacher at MHHS that had a girl sitting on his lap much of the time. Like my daughter being in a class totally out of control because it was for kids who couldn't pass the algebra class the semester before, but they hired a teacher who didn't know how to do algebra himself, so he let the kids do as they pleased.
Like my daughter's teacher not showing up for a meeting between me, the parent, and the asst. principal because he was a drunk all semester and just wrote grades in the book willy nilly and threw away all the tests so he wouldn't be caught. They gave him a kindergarten class after this, because you just can't get RID of a bad teacher! You want me to go on? I have more horror stories.
For every horror story you have, there are thousands of success stories. I'd say the "bad" teachers are an exception and not the norm.
Quote from: Gardengirl on February 25, 2009, 10:42:01 PM
Because sometimes you CAN'T trust the teachers in charge!
Like my Spanish teacher at MHHS that had a girl sitting on his lap much of the time. Like my daughter being in a class totally out of control because it was for kids who couldn't pass the algebra class the semester before, but they hired a teacher who didn't know how to do algebra himself, so he let the kids do as they pleased.
Like my daughter's teacher not showing up for a meeting between me, the parent, and the asst. principal because he was a drunk all semester and just wrote grades in the book willy nilly and threw away all the tests so he wouldn't be caught. They gave him a kindergarten class after this, because you just can't get RID of a bad teacher! You want me to go on? I have more horror stories.
Ok before you get all "poor me!" on us, why the HELL did you not pull your kids from that school? I guess you like better to have a reason to bitch. If everything were going perfectly, you wouldn't have a reason to complain.
Bad teachers CAN get fired and have. It just takes observers to get off their ass and say something. Anyone can look good in a 40 minute observation and most of the time they know when that is going to happen.
I really think people that point out the numerous amounts of "bad" teachers their children had are looking for something to bitch about and are ignorant about their child's education anyway.
Quote from: kimmi on February 26, 2009, 07:23:58 AM
I really think people that point out the numerous amounts of "bad" teachers their children had are looking for something to bitch about and are ignorant about their child's education anyway.
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :ditto:
Quote from: kimmi on February 26, 2009, 07:23:58 AM
Ok before you get all "poor me!" on us, why the HELL did you not pull your kids from that school? I guess you like better to have a reason to bitch. If everything were going perfectly, you wouldn't have a reason to complain.
Bad teachers CAN get fired and have. It just takes observers to get off their ass and say something. Anyone can look good in a 40 minute observation and most of the time they know when that is going to happen.
I really think people that point out the numerous amounts of "bad" teachers their children had are looking for something to bitch about and are ignorant about their child's education anyway.
Hate to say this but you are wrong about getting rid of bad teachers easily. When my daughters were in middle school one of them had a teacher who was known to keep whiskey in her desk drawer and drink through out the day. My oldest daughter loved school and always got along with the teachers, even the ones no one else could get along with, but this teacher was the exception. I went to the school and talked to the principle who told me, "we know she drinks during the day and would love to be able to fire her but she is tenured and we can't". They had numerous complaints on her too. This was in the mid 70's and the teacher was there until she retired. Also not everyone has the money to put their kids in a private school or pay tuition to send them to another school out of their district.
Quote from: me on February 26, 2009, 08:54:05 AM
I went to the school and talked to the principle who told me, "we know she drinks during the day and would love to be able to fire her but she is tenured and we can't".
Then you failed in your duty to inform the Principal of the following.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm)
"Most States have tenure laws that prevent public school teachers from being fired without just cause and due process. Teachers may obtain tenure after they have satisfactorily completed a probationary period of teaching, normally 3 years.
Tenure does not absolutely guarantee a job, but it does provide some security
Quote from: Bo D on February 26, 2009, 10:27:14 AM
Then you failed in your duty to inform the Principal of the following.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm)
"Most States have tenure laws that prevent public school teachers from being fired without just cause and due process. Teachers may obtain tenure after they have satisfactorily completed a probationary period of teaching, normally 3 years. Tenure does not absolutely guarantee a job, but it does provide some security
But was that in effect in the 70's? I was just pointing out to Kimmi that things weren't always like they are now and all school systems aren't the same.
Quote from: me on February 26, 2009, 10:42:19 AM
But was that in effect in the 70's?
Did you check? I don't care if it was in the 50's. I wouldn't have accepted that principal's answer.
Quote from: Bo D on February 26, 2009, 11:08:46 AM
Did you check? I don't care if it was in the 50's. I wouldn't have accepted that principal's answer.
They did change her class so I was satisfied with that. I guess I really shouldn't have been nor should have the other parents that complained, but it seemed like the only solution at the time. My daughter ended up in an advanced English class and was better off for it in the long run.
Quote from: Bo D on February 26, 2009, 10:27:14 AM
Then you failed in your duty to inform the Principal of the following.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm)
"Most States have tenure laws that prevent public school teachers from being fired without just cause and due process. Teachers may obtain tenure after they have satisfactorily completed a probationary period of teaching, normally 3 years. Tenure does not absolutely guarantee a job, but it does provide some security
Exactly!
That information was not easily accessible in the 70's and before. No computers, remember. Had I known that I most likely would have jogged his memory. :wink:
I grew up in Chicago. One day (3rd grade) as I walked to school I was stabbed in the back for my lunch money.
I was a kid and did not realize I had been stabbed. I just thought the kid had punched me really hard then pulled the knife. I handed over the money as soon as I saw the knife.
My teacher must have noticed I was hurting or something. She came right to me as I sat at my desk, and would not accept my explanation for the way I was sitting. She insisted I get up. Then she saw the blood and walked me straight away to the nurse, who called the big cheese, who called the police.
The whole time I was scared as hell, but that teacher stayed with me and refused to leave my side. The police had me looking through class photo's until I saw the 8th grader who had done this to me.
The nurse said I wouldn't need stitches and applied some butterflies. Mom arrived, and all of us went to this kids classroom. He was promptly marched up to the head of the class, made to grab his ankles, and the big cheese went to work on him with a big ol' paddle. The he turned to look at me and I thought I was next! (I cried like the little boy I was, as the cops marched him out in bracelets). I never even knew I had been stabbed until we got home.
We went home and dad moved us to the suburbs the next day. And the day after that the teacher came to my new home to make sure I was alright. (I loved her like little boys do when cute young women pay special attention to us like that).
All these years (decades) later I can still see her face and remember her name. (And yes I have spoken to her face-to-face within the last 6 years and told her how much I appreciated all she did for me. I am so thankful to have had that opportunity, even though that time we both cried).
Good teachers have just as large an impact upon the children they are charged with as the bad ones do. They just don't get the attention of the media that the bad ones do.
The new POTUS has stated that it is a priority for him and his administration to correct that, to hold bad teachers accountable, to offer them the opportunity to correct it, and to fire them when they don't. Lets all learn from the mistakes of the past, stop dwelling on them, and give the POTUS some time to put things right shall we? :smile:
In the meantime, if the local system isn't working I suspect the new federal one will. . .
I sure hope you're right PH. I had some wonderful teachers to as did my kids but it seems there are fewer and fewer of them now. Kimmi, you happen to be one of he good ones but don't be blinded to the fact that there are teachers out there who just don't give a darn in every school system. I'm sorry and I know not many will agree with me but it seems like since schools started getting federal money and the unions got in they have gone to pot. Discipline also needs to be reintroduced into the schools so teachers and principles as well as bus drivers can again have the upper hand on things.
You can't reintroduce discipline that was used 20+ years ago because that is illegal.
Besides, there are too many parents who come running to their child's defense even when they know that their child was in the wrong. I witnessed it today! Two boys fighting yesterday when there was a sub. Today they were in the office for in school suspension. Dad A came in and verbally confronted (attacked) the teacher who was not even here yesterday and then came in and went all loco on the principal who basically told him that his child could either have in school suspension, get his work done and it not be on his record, or he was more than welcome to take him home for three days. All because he told his child that if anyone pushes him, he is to lay into them. Awesome!! I'm glad that we are teaching our kids that if they don't get their way just to hit them. However, we can't use spanking as a means to stop behaviors because it is seen as teaching children to hit.
Me I'm not denying that there are poor teachers floating around, but if the general public paints teachers and public figures as the devil and teaches their children not to trust them, then who the hell is going to take school seriously?
You can call discipline a federal money problem and a union problem but I call it a Dr. Spock problem!! I also don't see how fed money and unions are causing parents to never show up for conferences. I don't see how those two items are responsible for kids coming to kindergarten without being able to recognize their own name, know their colors, or even begin to sing their ABC's.
I will have to agree with you on the Dr. Spock generation being the cause of the discipline problem. While I don't agree with teacher's being able to spank a child, too many abuse the privilege, I think detention should be used more rather than suspension. A lot of kids act out just so they will get suspended and if they had to be there only in a different class and have strict rules to go by maybe it would start turning around a little. I don't know the answer to the parents who uphold a child's bad behavior that has been going on forever although not to the extreme it seems to be today. As far as the fed money and the unions are concerned I'm just going on observation and when things started going downhill because I haven't had kids in school since '82' and things seemed to be going fairly well then.
It really has nothing to do with bringing paddling back into school. If more parents spanked, grounded, time out, whatever on a more consistent basis, then we wouldn't have as many behavior problems coming to school.
On that I will agree with you 100% for sure.
If parents were doing their job, like actually making breakfast and lunch for their own kids instead of asking the taxpayers to pay the bill for their kid's food, that might actually be a start. The more we do for their kids, the more parents don't have to. It is not teaching them a damn thing! Then, the parents would make sure the kids understood and got their homework done and got to bed at a decent hour.
I memorized Dr. Spock for my own kids simply because he was what was relevant then, and my kids were great! I never found I had to spank them. Usually my look would make them mind, or a little psychology. You have to be one step ahead of kids, and for some parents, who turn their babies over to a sitter at 6 weeks old, that is just too much.
Quote from: kimmi on February 26, 2009, 08:03:05 PM
It really has nothing to do with bringing paddling back into school. If more parents spanked, grounded, time out, whatever on a more consistent basis, then we wouldn't have as many behavior problems coming to school.
You sound like one fine teacher!
And a sensible human being!
:smitten:
Thanks Bo!
I found this tid bit of information interesting. My Superintendent sends out a news letter to parents on a quarterly basis. In this latest version, he discusses our district's budget and there is a very helpful pie graph included.
62% of our budget comes from the state.
26% comes from county appropriations.
6% comes from Federal
6% come from other resources
I don't think 6% of a budget would be that influencial to make or break an entire system, especially one the size of mine. It would certainly hurt not to have it, but I don't think it is the reason education went to hell in a hand basket.
It isn't the amount of money the school system gets but rather the rules and restrictions which accompany the money.